Denial is a river in Egypt

The other day I mused on the subject of orgasm control vs. orgasm denial. I don’t know if I actually came out and said it that clearly, but that was the point of the post. Right now, Belle denies me orgasm (rather severely). Denial of orgasm is a form of orgasm control, of course, but it’s not at all the same thing. Orgasm control does not imply denial, though it’s a direction it could take.

ANYWAY, point being (and the point I made in my previous post) is that I firmly believe orgasm control is Right and Natural. There’s nothing kinky about it. It’s totally clear to me now that literally every man in a relationship should have his orgasm controlled by his partner (no, I’m not ignoring you gay guys, but I need to leave you out of this for clarity’s sake). I know that sounds very out there and draconian and like I know what’s best for the entire world. Can’t help it. You can disagree with me if you want, but it seems that, for a man, the act of committing himself to a woman would take on so much more significance if he was also committing one of the critical things that defined him as a man: his orgasm. Not only that, it would make it much more difficult for his partner to drift away. If he really meant it and lived up to his word, the two would be forever locked in a symbiotic feedback loop.

Yeah, like I said, out there.

Of course, there are probably a bunch of men who don’t want their orgasm controlled by anyone. That’s fine. It’s a free country. I think they’re wrong, but that’s my right, too. Everybody should be doing it this way.

I only bring it up again because it seems to have developed into a little meme. Sarah Jameson sent one of her email updates the other day on this very subject. She starts out…

Hi Thumper,

Gee, it’s like she wrote it just for me!

She continues…

I had an interesting conversation with John last night about the difference between orgasm control and orgasm denial.

Because they’re not the same thing, even though we tend to see them and talk about them as if they were.

Our conversation was prompted by a couple of emailed questions from a lady who wanted to know, in effect, what I and other women get from subjecting (or treating, depending on your perspective) our men to orgasm denial.

I honestly tried to figure out which bits I should quote with the idea that maybe she wouldn’t want me spilling the entire thing here in a public forum, but I found at the end, “Share this email with a friend or lover. Thanks.” While we’re obviously not lovers, I shall, for legal purposes, consider you all friends. For the time being, anyway. If you like what see, go to her site and sign up.

For many men… male chastity isn’t about orgasm denial… it’s about…

Orgasm Control

Of course, orgasm control then gives rise to the likelihood of orgasm denial, but it’s not always a given. I know from my inbox, many women don’t practice orgasm denial in the sense they always allow their man to come whenever they make love, but they don’t allow it at other times.

Is this orgasm denial? I wouldn’t call it that, but then I’m not the final arbiter of these things, and neither is anyone else.

To my own way of thinking orgasm denial is both more long term and more explicit, meaning we engage in lovemaking and John doesn’t get to come. To me, allowing him to come every time we made love, even if it was only when we made love, well that would be more just orgasm control.

Now many will argue these arguments and discussions are irrelevant and unimportant (and if that’s the case for you, then for you they are).

But I, think they are important, and I know many agree with me.

Why do I think they’re important?

Because to John and to other men, the distinction is very clear.

To John…

Orgasm Control is the Key

Meaning, while he loves orgasm denial for the feelings it gives him, both physical and emotional, and while his full year of orgasm denial is going to drive him up the wall with pleasure and frustration, the real deep satisfaction comes from my orgasm control.

In other words, his greater pleasure, long term, comes from knowing I am the one who gets to choose when he comes. And while if I chose to let him come every single time we played around it would probably take something away from the game, it’s also true that allowing him to come once a week, once a month, or even at random times would be just as pleasurable for him as the full year is proving to be (even though he’s not even a full month in yet).

Just food for thought, I suppose.

Fact is, for most men, at least in my experience, it’s the orgasm control not the orgasm denial that’s important, and as a woman I admit I find the former much easier to understand than the latter.

I have no idea what drives the need for orgasm denial. I think that the desire to be locked up, at least for me, eventually grows out of being denied in that it’s just easier to live when the cock has been removed from the table if I’m not going to be allowed to come anyway.

Case in point. Last night, Belle was out of town and I was feeling a little horny. Even thought it’s been almost a month since the last orgasm, yes, it was just a little. But I didn’t do anything about it. I didn’t look at porn, I didn’t try to self-abuse. I didn’t do anything. Because the cock was off the table. There was no point. In the past, that would have saddened me (and it may again at some point), but for the time being, it just made everything easier. I know that, had she been gone and the cock hadn’t been locked up, I would have spent a great deal of time playing with it. Not being able to was a great relief. It’s taken me more than two years to think that way and it’s required a total commitment on my part to Belle’s control (and denial) of my orgasm.

The second part of my mini-meme theme is from a new blog, Delving into Deviance. It’s written from a dominant woman’s POV and includes a post called “Orgasm Control”.

Fuck toy and I enjoy control, but I don’t like putting him in chastity for too long because I enjoy his orgasms and I enjoy riding him for ages and then coming together. In fact, for his impending birthday I’m going to make him come till it hurts, and that’s a very exciting idea.

That’s the flip-side of orgasm control, obviously. Over orgasming. That sounds fun, too.

However, all of these are things that he can do with me. He’s not going to be allowed to come on his own anymore. That isn’t to say that he’ll come any less often or that he won’t be allowed to watch porn. Just that his orgasms always have to happen with me. Being so intimately tied in with his sexual pleasure will be fun. Just as Thumper’s said, I have no problem with men’s masturbatory habits generally. Masturbation isn’t a problem or anything. And sometimes, if I’m sleepy, I may allow him to simply masturbate beside me as I snuggle up to him. But always sharing that moment will, I think, be rather magical and deepen his submission.

Sometimes he won’t be allowed to come, and there will certainly be plenty of times that he doesn’t get to come as soon as he’d like too (I love edging). However, realistically, most days he will have an orgasm because I enjoy watching him in that moment. I love his face, his noises, his surrender. It’s beautiful.

In the beginning, when for me this game was all about denial, a dynamic like this would have been very unsatisfying. Now, though, I think I could live indefinitely as described above. I’m not asking or suggesting Belle change anything, but like I said, I am now totally and completely committed to Belle owning my orgasm. I will come whenever and however she lets me and I’ll be thankful for it. I won’t push for any specific duration and I won’t be disappointed, regardless.

I want to be tortured, and I want to be made to squirm, and I want to be pushed, but more than any of that, I want Belle to always control my orgasm. Always. Because that’s how it should be.

17 thoughts on “Denial is a river in Egypt

  1. Hmm yes. I totally can understand. A year or two of strict orgasm control did bring sandy and I together. It created strains also, but on balance was good for us.

    Now the flr dynamic is behind us and I come when i like. It’s a strange feeling and I feel a keen sense of loss. However I have no interest in going back to being orgasm controlled and the longer time passes the less I want to actually go back. I wonder if it’s a phase or if I’ve had the submissive ‘burned out’. I only see it as a game I would play occasionally.

    Yet, i worry about the lack of the cement that was added to our marriage by her owning my sexuality.

    Sorry this comment become more about me. But your post got me thinking.

  2. Interesting comment, Mykey, and it makes me think. Right now Ab and I are very much into chastity, orgasm denial, orgasm control and the whole nine yards. Yes, we’re even getting into submissive stuff and it’s all good. But last night we were talking and I commented that *I* am the one who tends to go through phases. Ab said that he’s liked all my phases (which have ranged from knitting to naturism to now, chastity — and everything in between) but it made me wonder if chastity will be a phase that will end. I tend to have about a 2-3 year cycle and we’re just 6 months in so I can probably ride this wave for awhile, but I wonder about what you said — “the keen sense of loss.”

    Time will tell. Thanks for your comment.

    D

  3. Since you can take it, I won’t mince words. You wrote:

    I firmly believe orgasm control is Right and Natural. There’s nothing kinky about it. It’s totally clear to me now that literally every man in a relationship should have his orgasm controlled by his partner (no, I’m not ignoring you gay guys, but I need to leave you out of this for clarity’s sake). I know that sounds very out there and draconian and like I know what’s best for the entire world. Can’t help it. You can disagree with me if you want, but it seems that, for a man, the act of committing himself to a woman would take on so much more significance if he was also committing one of the critical things that defined him as a man: his orgasm. Not only that, it would make it much more difficult for his partner to drift away. If he really meant it and lived up to his word, the two would be forever locked in a symbiotic feedback loop.

    (Emphasis mine.)

    Put simply, this is the most disgusting paragraph I have ever read from you, and possibly from any blogger in a very long time. Perhaps that is because I greatly enjoy your writing and find that you and I share much of the same fetishistic desires. So I am perhaps hugely disappointed, which thus fuels my disgust at such a ridiculous and callously sexist statement coming from someone who has a track record that has stayed relatively clear of such contemptible essentialism.

    Tell me, Thumper, while you stroke your ego for so carefully addressing the wrinkle of homosexuality while simultaneously tossing it to the winds, what about the heterosexual women, what about the wrinkle of gender? What “should” they do with their desires, in your worldview?

    On a related note, I would urge you to read the opening chapters to Sex At Dawn, which I hope will purge you of this pathetically reductionist view of the way men “should” be. Ick. This paragraph feels like everything I was warning you against in my (admittedly rambling) post, Orgasm Denial Does Not Submissive Men Make.

    1. Since you can take it, then I’ll not mince words. Chill the fuck out.

      Sorry, maymay, this isn’t religion for me or political. It’s my life and what I’m thinking at any given point. I am not here to advance any agenda. I am not trying to please you or anyone. If I disappoint you, we’ll both just have to figure out a way to deal with it.

      Nice way to start the day. Thank you for your opinion.

      1. Since you can take it, then I’ll not mince words. … Nice way to start the day.

        I can take it, and you don’t have to mince words. Sarcasm, however, seems beneath you. Or maybe it’s not? I wasn’t kind, but I was direct.

        Anyway, I’m sorry I contributed to a bad morning. That sucks. I’m just headed to bed and didn’t think about your sleep schedule.

        Sorry, maymay, this isn’t religion for me or political.

        You may never take an interest in politics, but politics will take an interest in you. Same thing as what you seem unwilling to acknowledge about my other post, too. Sigh.

        As for religion…well, seeing as how you’re the one who brought that up, I’m struck with the unshakable notion that your views are a religion for you.

        Such (religious?) adherence to an ignorantly essentialist view of human maleness, or indeed of any human characteristic, is perhaps the most destructive form of self-centeredness, for you declare others’ expressions illegitimate. And I say this, I hasten to add, as a self-identified man who not only would, but already has wholly subscribed to your beliefs for my own life.

        I hope you consider these facts the next time you grant yourself absolution because “this isn’t…political.”

    2. Now that I’ve had a bit of caffeine, I’ll reply to your comment by saying the intention of my post was to describe a strategy in which men (with penises) and women (with the other part) in traditional marriages or long-term relationships could experience greater degrees of sexual intimacy and satisfaction. That should explain my (admittedly flippant) dismissal of the “gay guys” and, I suppose, by extension anyone not in the aforementioned gender group.

      I loved Sex at Dawn. Thought it was great. And, truth be told, I think we humans have totally screwed with ourselves and our sexuality. However, I’m also a pragmatist. I live in this time and under these social norms and am married to a devout monogamist. Therefore, while I agree that my POV does not align with the vision of human sexuality presented in the book, I think it very much compliments the version of human sexuality that plays out in my house. Which, at the end of the day, is all I really care about. Were I like you (young, passionate, not married with two kids and a mortgage), I’m sure my position would be different. Alas, I am not. And I’m very happy not to be.

      I have no interest in getting into a multi-thousand word debate about this with you. If you feel the need to rail against my pathetic, narrow, disgusting and icky words, please do so on your own blog. Don’t be upset, though, if I don’t ever read it. As I said before, sex is not political for me. It’s personal. You can go fight the good fight. Leave me out of it.

      1. I think that’s all peachy keen. Until this:

        As I said before, sex is not political for me. It’s personal. You can go fight the good fight. Leave me out of it.

        You are the pre-eminent blogger about male orgasm control on the entire Internet, on par with Tom Allen. You are political whether you like it or not.

        If you want to treat your sex life as wholly personal and not the least bit political, then you can not blog publicly. Otherwise, and I’m not sorry about this, you can’t have it both ways.

        My final words on the issue, since I don’t want to overstay my welcome (and you have been generous with my characteristic harshness, so I thank you) will be to make clear that I care about this with “passion” precisely because we share a fetish and every single time I talk about it I reference this blog as one of the only sensible places on the entire Internet to learn about this fetish. It would upset me greatly to need to start disclaiming my admiration for you due to an increasing amount of relatively careless and flippant remarks specifically due to how often I cite your otherwise fantastic writing.

        I hope I didn’t ruin your day. I shouldn’t have that much power over you. Thanks again for your generosity with your comments section.

  4. Really loved Sarah and John’s discussion on the topic of orgasm control vs. orgasm denial. The very idea of being chaste is “saving yourself” for your beloved, right? In the middle ages, saving yourself was code for sexual intercourse and of course the purpose was to achieve orgasm. However, in Cupid’s Poisoned Arrow, the author goes to great lengths to prove that ancient religions viewed sex for bonding as something that was akin to a deep spiritual and respectful love for your partner. It’s the intimacy thing instead of the wham bam, dopamine rush….I thought it was all bullshit, before my wife and I started our experience in male chastity. We really are experience a change in how we feel towards one another, that quite honestly we haven’t felt for many years. Is it all really due to changing our chemistry and rewiring our pleasure zone? Does this explain why being compassionate feels good? I think it does. My experience tells me that it is the same. Love is a drug?

    I know this is out there too….But it is actually happening to our relationship and the only thing that has changed is our practicing male chastity. Just this morning my wife and I re-affirmed our commitment for her to be part of any orgasm that I might have. Meaning simply, we both want her to be a part of it. It is a consensual agreement, not one over the other. It does feel right for us. It feels like love….and not even Paddy Chayefsky could define that…Hope this helped your morning out. Reading your entry improved mine! Thanks!

  5. Golly, all these people talking about me. No wonder my ears were burning. Thanks for the plug, Thumper x

    Maymay, you seem to think Thumper needs your approval or permission to post just whatever takes his fancy, just because he can.

    How quaint.

    Sarah

  6. P.S. Did you really post about control vs denial before I did? I wonder if I saw it and it stuck in my unconscious. I certainly don’t remember seeing it. x

  7. “It’s totally clear to me now that literally every man in a relationship should have his orgasm controlled by his partner (no, I’m not ignoring you gay guys, but I need to leave you out of this for clarity’s sake). I know that sounds very out there and draconian and like I know what’s best for the entire world. Can’t help it. You can disagree with me if you want, but it seems that, for a man, the act of committing himself to a woman would take on so much more significance if he was also committing one of the critical things that defined him as a man: his orgasm. Not only that, it would make it much more difficult for his partner to drift away. If he really meant it and lived up to his word, the two would be forever locked in a symbiotic feedback loop.”

    Came here after looking at May’s blog, and I too have to wrinkle my brows at this. Mainly because if I followed this prescription I’d be one sad little bunny: my kink might *result* in orgasm (or not), but who gets to cum isn’t the main point at all. I’m focused on another part of the body entirely.

    Also, one thing that could be taken from this paragraph is that men are the best partners *only* when their orgasms are controlled. I feel rather sad that the only way to get them to stay in a relationship is to do something with them that I don’t even get turned on by. I’m GGG and all, but if I believed what you wrote I’d be rather depressed that my libido is incompatible with that of every man on the planet (and so would every other woman who got off on voyeurism, or feet, or having *their* orgasm controlled instead of the man’s, or what have you.)

  8. Dear thumper, I think you fail to understand what Maymay is saying. I believe he is not suggesting to take anything from you, but rather, to give you. I, for one, see and hear in his comments ample care, love and admiration directed towards you. His passionate words are a huge compliment to you. I, for one, was made to admire you and your writing including in this heated conversation. It is a shame to see such beautiful exchange mired with what seems like hurt.

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